Legislature(1997 - 1998)
04/23/1997 03:40 PM Senate RES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
SENATE RESOURCES COMMITTEE
April 23, 1997
3:40 P.M.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Senator Rick Halford, Chairman
Senator Lyda Green, Vice Chairman
Senator Loren Leman
Senator Robin Taylor
Senator Georgianna Lincoln
MEMBERS ABSENT
Senator Bert Sharp
Senator John Torgerson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
Confirmation Hearing:
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission
Ms. Marlene Johnson - Hoonah
Mr. Bruce Twomley - Juneau
SENATE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION NO. 10
Supporting continued use of Alaska's renewable furbearer resources.
- MOVED SCR 10 OUT OF COMMITTEE
CS FOR HOUSE BILL NO. 23(RES)
"An Act relating to management of state land; and relating to
access to land."
- MOVED CSHB23(RES) OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 23
Relating to the seizure and sale of Alaska commercial fishing entry
permits by the United States Internal Revenue Service.
- MOVED HJR 23 OUT OF COMMITTEE
HOUSE BILL NO. 17
"An Act establishing the Department of Natural Resources as the
platting authority in certain areas of the state; relating to
subdivisions and dedications; and providing for an effective date."
- SCHEDULED, BUT NOT HEARD
SENATE BILL NO. 40
"An Act relating to management of discrete salmon stocks, to salmon
management assessments, and to the fishery business tax."
- SCHEDULED, BUT NOT HEARD
PREVIOUS SENATE COMMITTEE ACTION
SCR 10 - See Resource Committee minutes dated 4/21/97.
HB 23 - No previous action to consider.
HJR 23 - No previous action to consider.
WITNESS REGISTER
Senator Gary Wilken
State Capitol Bldg.
Juneau AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of SCR 10.
Mr. Dick Bishop
Alaska Outdoor Council
211 4th St., #302A
Juneau AK 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCR 10 and HB 23.
Mr. Wayne Regelin, Director
Division of Wildlife Conservation
Department of Fish and Game
P.O. Box 25526
Juneau AK 99802-5526
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported SCR 10.
Mr. Bill Perhach
Alaska Environmental Lobby
P.O. Box 34
Denali Park AK
POSITION STATEMENT: Opposed HB 23.
Ms. Carol Carroll, Director
Division of Support Services
Department of Natural Resources
400 Willoughby Ave.
Juneau AK 99801-1724
POSITION STATEMENT: Supported HB 23.
Ms. Melinda Hofstad, Staff
Representative Bill Hudson
State Capitol Bldg.
Juneau AK 99801-1182
POSITION STATEMENT: Staff to sponsor of HJR 23.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-28, SIDE A
Number 001
CHAIRMAN HALFORD called the Senate Resources Committee meeting to
order at 3:40 p.m. and announced a confirmation hearing for the
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission.
MS. MARLENE JOHNSON said she is a life-long Alaskan and reviewed
her resume for the committee.
SENATOR LEMAN asked what Alaskans can do to encourage the holding
of limited entry permits by Alaskans and asked if she had any
comments on the IRS seizure of permits.
MS. JOHNSON said the primary answer is education of rural Alaskans.
They are unaware of what their rights are and what they should do.
They need to be educated about how to pay their taxes.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD noted that if permits are lost in the larger
communities, it doesn't have the same drastic affect it does in the
villages where they are the economic focus. He asked if there was
some way of creating a quota of one permit per village. MS.
JOHNSON said they had received questions like that and if it were
legal they could find a way to assign a permit to an area.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said in five years with welfare reform you'll find
the only income in some of those villages was derived from the one
or two permits that were there and now they are gone.
MR. BRUCE TWOMLEY , Commercial Fisheries Entry Commissioner, said he
was first appointed to the Commission in 1992 by Governor Hammond.
He said before that he used to sue the State and federal government
on behalf of fishermen. The laws are arcane and he thought he was
a help in deciding the numbers of cases that come before them. He
acknowledged the problem with the IRS.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked what he thought could be done to keep
permits in small villages. MR. TWOMLEY said that is his biggest
personal concern and he knows first hand the effect if those
permits disappear. He thought that educating the people in the
villages was the best thing the Commission could do as the law is
now. He said that a local permit brokerage has been established in
the Bristol Bay area to mitigate this problem. He said of the
transfers that go to local people, more than half are by gift and
they go from one family member to another or from one village
member to another. The question is how to make more of that type
of transaction go on.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD asked if there was any hope of developing a quota
system. MR. TWOMLEY replied it would be difficult to do a quota
system in a fishery that's not managed by quota. The troll fishery
would be an exception. The difficulty in having a community in
Alaska own a permit is with our constitution and as it is
interpreted by our Supreme Court. There are a lot of pitfalls in
trying to redistribute benefits. This is an issue also with local
hire.
SENATOR LINCOLN said she thought the answer in the villages was
economic development and diversity so people have an opportunity to
make money in other areas. CHAIRMAN HALFORD agreed, but he said
that permits was one thing that had worked in the past.
SENATOR GREEN moved to send a letter on the two members of the
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission. There were no objections
and it was so ordered.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced they would next take up the nominee for
the Oil and Gas Conservation Commission.
MS. MARY MARSHBURN, Oil and Gas Conservation Commissioner,
submitted her resume and said it was to the benefit of Alaskans to
ensure the efficient depletion of the State's hydrocarbon resource
by prevent waste, both surface and below ground, by maximizing the
ultimate recovery and protecting the rights of adjacent owners to
produce. She said they address these through a variety of programs
like the well permiting system, reservoir surveillance, the
establishment of drilling units in unitized pools of operation in
the field inspection program.
She said a commissioner needed integrity, a judicious temperament -
one that can listen and examine all sides, an ability to appraise
information and evaluate alternatives, and hopefully achieve a
sound and reasoned decision. She said she found a statement in
enabling legislation that said the Commission was created to avoid
an appearance and, in fact, a conflict or the appearance of a
conflict.
SENATOR LEMAN asked if there was anything new on the old order
number 360 and those conflicts. MS. MARSHBURN replied no and
that's part of the legal opinions and briefs she has been reading.
As far as she knows the owners are working cooperatively.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD commented that the State is a party in the
agreement and he thought that even if they agreed with each other
about the waste, they shouldn't be able to say they made a mistake
and there's no waste. The pubic deserves an answer or proof that
there's a resolution.
SENATOR LEMAN asked if they would be getting into resolution of the
kick well. MS. MARSHBURN replied that the Commission's
jurisdiction is on all the properties within the State and it's all
underground. So if there's drilling or if the pool extends from
outside to inside, they will be involved.
SENATOR LEMAN moved to send the standard letter to the full Senate
regarding Ms. Marshburn's appointment. There were no objections
and it was so ordered.
SCR 10 SUPPORTING USE OF FURBEARER RESOURCE
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced SCR 10 to be up for consideration.
SENATOR WILKEN, sponsor, said SCR 10 calls for the legislature's
endorsement of continued harvest and use by Alaskans of the State's
renewable furbearer resources, consistent with the principles of
sustained yield. Not only is trapping an important management tool
for helping to maintain healthy furbearer populations; it is also
a traditional activity for many Alaskans that helps to promote
self-reliance by providing income, food, and clothing. Trapping
ties Alaska to its pioneer roots, and helps to keep alive the very
values that built the forty-ninth state.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he thought that Canada had taken action of
some sort. There was an international protocol on furs. Other
countries with a fur bearing interest have exempted themselves from
that and the United States has not. He asked if there was some way
to add that to the resolution.
SENATOR WILKEN replied that he was speaking about the European
sanctions which he didn't know a lot about. He understands the
sanctions are against furs that we would normally get in our normal
Alaskan way. Canada, specifically, has acquiesced to harvest in
ways that are not compatible with our life style. We don't want to
give up traditional trapping methods.
MR. DICK BISHOP , Alaska Outdoor Council, supported SCR 10. He said
it is extremely timely, because last fall the Fish and Wildlife
Service put out a general invitation for comments on trapping on
federal refuges. Eighty-five percent of the United States federal
refuge system is in Alaska and this was an opportunity for anyone
who wanted to restrict trapping to comment. If any restrictions
were put on trapping in federal refuges, it would be a real
imposition on Alaskans. People both in and outside of Alaska have
started a campaign to take advantage of this opportunity and have
sent out propaganda opposing trapping on federal refuges.
Number 512
MR. WAYNE REGELIN, Director, Division of Wildlife Conservation,
endorsed the resolution. He said for the past few years they have
worked closely with a lot of Alaskan trappers, especially the three
Alaska trapper associations. He thought it was time that trappers
get some well-deserved recognition for the good they do, because
they get a lot of negative publicity and they have a very
legitimate activity. He thought the resolution should be sent to
all the newspapers in Alaska, too.
MR. REGELIN explained that they have been working on international
humane trapping standards for almost four years through the
International Union of Standards. The European Union said they
wouldn't import furs that were caught unless they met an
international humane trapping standard. They thought they were
close a few years ago to having a standard developed and through
international politics they allowed the anti-trapping people into
the debate and we lost. We have been treading water since then.
Canada just folded their tents and gave up saying they would ban
leg-hold traps. Alaska does not want to do that; it would
devastate our martin trapping industry. In Canada, he said, the
decision was made in Ottawa, and he didn't think many provinces
were pleased.
He said the European Union is in extreme turmoil at this point and
we have an alternative plan to proceed if they take action. He
said there is a strong green movement in some countries over there
and they will probably win. We are working on developing a
standard with Russia and Greece. They are getting great support
from the Alaskan delegation.
SENATOR LEMAN moved to pass SCR 10 with individual recommendations.
There were no objections and it was so ordered.
HB 23 STATE LAND MANAGEMENT: ACCESS & RESTRICT
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced HB 23 to be up for consideration.
MR. ED GRASSER , Staff to Representative Beverly Masek, sponsor of
HB 23, said HB 23 continues the effort to protect public access on
public lands in Alaska. Last year this legislation had
overwhelming support from the House and the Senate. They have
worked on this version with DNR to make it apply to the proper
sections. It protects the public's right to access public lands
for traditional uses, like hunting, fishing, trapping, snow
machining, and dog sledding. It also has a section protecting the
interests of private property owners and people who hold a lease
for mining and oil and gas exploration.
He said they had received a lot of support from the public as well
as the Alaska Boaters Association, the Alaska Outdoor Council,
Matanuska Valley Sportsman, Tanana Valley Sportsman, Territorial
Sportsman, the Alaska State Snowmachine Association, and other
groups.
TAPE 97-28, SIDE B
SENATOR LEMAN noted they had a letter of opposition from the
Environmental Lobby expressing concern about impacts from
increasing helicopter activities, etc. He didn't see that as being
recognized as a traditional means of access and asked if that was
a valid concern.
MR. GRASSER responded that the traditional means of access is
predicted for traditional outdoor activities and he didn't think
helicopter transportation provided a large array of traditional
uses once the transportation gets you to where you are going. He
didn't think the bill intended or allow for that to happen, because
it ties the access to a traditional outdoor activity.
MR. BISHOP testified that the Alaska Outdoor Council strongly
supports HB 23. If access is limited or unavailable, the
opportunities for trapping (a traditional use) are similarly
limited. This insures that traditional activities, which include
much more than trapping, are protected through access on State and
private lands.
MR. BILL PERHACH, Denali Park resident, said throughout the State,
as development has intensified, the importance of professional
planning and the land designation process has become more obvious.
Future growth will make a case for designated use areas as well.
Enacting HB 23 will make it more difficult to pursue a balance of
uses; in fact, it will exacerbate conflict making it more difficult
for the State to provide for common use of resources.
The Alaska Environmental Lobby is opposed to CSHB 23 because it
does not acknowledge the importance and value in establishing zones
of quiet and areas for nonmotorized use, growing concern over
impacts from ever-increasing helicopter activities, or potential
impacts from motorized access to private property adjacent to State
land.
The majority of Alaskans and a majority of Alaska's visitors
greatly value its natural landscape including the means by which we
access it and this is best accomplished by maintaining a
willingness to consider all viewpoints with a commitment to
fairness and respect for differing interests.
As an example, he said there was a squatter problem in his
community. Over a period of years people, primarily summer
employees from the Denali concessions, started living on State
land, primarily in DOT right-of-way and the community tried to get
some relief because the problem built to a point in 1992 when there
were 130 -150 people living in the woods at Hornet Creek and about
40 - 50 people living in the woods at McKinley Village without no
provision for sanitation or fire. Finally, when there was bear
problem and one was finally killed, the State started to move
which, he thought, was the first time the departments came together
and closed the areas. The problem doesn't exist any more at this
point and it is nice to have the process for that type of closure
in place. He thought HB 23 eliminated that process.
Another point, MR. PERHACH said, is that most people in his
community use motorized and nonmotorized transportation on their
trails and they work it out, but they don't have the level of use
there is in the Park. He didn't think there was a problem in the
snow machine community with having a place to ride, but it was in
getting access to that place off the road system. He explained
that a TRAK Board has been established made up of a combination of
motorized and nonmotorized interests who work together and come up
with solutions. They can also find small pots of money to fund
projects and the legislature does not have time to find those
federal sources of money. He wanted to see emphasis on something
like TRAK rather than a divisive piece of legislation like this.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD said he thought once there was private property,
he didn't think they had the right to change the rules in which
that private property originally got there unless the State bought
it back and that's where he most strongly disagrees with his
letter. MR. PERHACH responded that his intention was to call
attention to the possibility that a private property owner might be
affected by noise from a trail close-by or helicopter overflights.
He said the bill mentions flying as if it's traditional access
which fixed wing aircraft is. He was concerned that helicopters
would be considered traditional access when it comes to certain
operations in the Park and he would be happy to have language that
excluded helicopters.
Number 431
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced an at ease from 4:45 - 4:50 p.m.
MS. CAROL CARROLL, Director, Division of Support Services, said she
did work with Representative Masek on this bill and agreed to not
oppose the bill as it is now. It does limit some of their
discretion to do some types of multiple use closures and that is
something they are willing to live with.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if this bill had any retroactive affect. MS.
CARROLL answered that it is prospective; however, they have not
done many closures through the Division of Land.
SENATOR TAYLOR asked if Representative Masek would object to
including within the legislation restrictions on the same type of
discretion by the Department of Fish and Game. MR. GRASSER replied
that she would prefer to leave the bill intact, but HB 168 is her
other bill addressing access on ADF&G closures.
SENATOR GREEN moved to pass CSHB 23(RES) with individual
recommendations and the accompanying fiscal note. There were no
objections and it was so ordered.
HJR 23 SALE OF LTD ENTRY PERMITS BY IRS
CHAIRMAN HALFORD announced HJR 23 to be up for consideration.
MS. MELINDA HOFSTAD, Staff to Representative Hudson, sponsor, said
it was a simple resolution. She said there have some outrageous
actions on the part of the IRS to seize limited entry permits in
lieu of back taxes. Representative Hudson doesn't believe that
anyone should not pay their taxes, but this is a question of
whether you take someone's livelihood away from them and their
ability to pay those taxes. She said that the IRS has recently
taken a permit valued at $30,000 and sold it for $5,000.
SENATOR TAYLOR said he thought it was somewhat schizophrenic for a
group of people who earned the income through the permit they have,
many of whom got the permit at no cost, while others have to
purchase them, and then fail to pay the taxes on the income they
earn. He has a hard time specializing relief for one group of
taxpayers and not for all.
SENATOR TAYLOR moved to pass the resolution from committee with
individual recommendations. There were no objections and it was so
ordered.
CHAIRMAN HALFORD adjourned the meeting at 5:00 p.m.
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